Curse

badgob · Jul 15, 2005, 03:45 PM // 15:45

From what I have been reading, it seems that ArenaNet's biggest concern is botters selling in game items for real money. I have a radical thought here, and I hope that (if I am correct) this would be an active solution to the economy problem.

Instead of targetting the game and it's players by "nerfing" areas, lets (as a community of concerned and involved players) target the botters DIRECTLY through their weakest point, their wallets.

How do we do this? Last time looked on ebay there were almost 2000 auctions for gold, items and whatnot. Doesn't this violate the EULA? Can't we report these auctions to ArenaNet (who would then, in turn, inform eBay, who would then shut down the auction)? If each one of us took the time to scan eBay and report 5 auctions to ArenaNet, wouldn't that make some sort of drastic imact? Wouldn't the people (and I use that term loosely) who try to sell crap, and thus create the problem, eventually either get banned from eBay (for having multiple illegal auctions) or just give up all together because we THE COMMUNITY will not stand for botter ruining our game?

Wouldn't that help fix the problem? And if it does, who could we start sending emails to?

Start the revolution!

sino-soviet · Jul 15, 2005, 03:47 PM // 15:47

There was no economic problem until they changed the damn trader.

badgob · Jul 15, 2005, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Sino- While your opinion is valid, your response does not address the above issue. Do you have an opinion on that? If so, I would like to hear it.

-Thanks!

sino-soviet · Jul 15, 2005, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Sorry just had to get that out of my system.

As for ebayers and such, I don't think there is anything ANET or anyone can do about that. Actually there is one way. Anet can make it so that the trade system does not allow items to be "given" away. For example, they can put a price on each item that drops, and make it so that the item cannot be given away for less than it was priced at. Something similar could be done for gold. That however, would make me quit the game and never return.

Drakron · Jul 15, 2005, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Actually yes, they can ask EBay to shut down the audictions.

Problem is effort of tracking then down, that requires a 24/7 staff ...

badgob · Jul 15, 2005, 04:05 PM // 16:05

I was under the impression that if notified, eBay could shut down such blatantly illegal auctions. And if the seller open enough illegal auctions, they get shut down. I am also under the impression that an approach like this has not been attempted by any company, ArenaNet included.

Interestingly enough, most of these auctions have lame disclaimers stating such things as "you are not paying for the <item, gold> you're paying me for my <time to play the game, the transaction fee, the goodwill of transfer>". but even with these disclaimer the intent to sell is still there, and thus, violates the EULA.

If we as a community started actively pursuing such entities, and had the support of NCSoft and ArenaNet (and eBay, Amazon etc...) I guarantee this sort of behavior would decrase massively, and then "nerfing" like this could be undone.

badgob · Jul 15, 2005, 04:06 PM // 16:06

As for the 24/7 staff...that's where we come in. We do the initial reporting to ArenaNet, then they have one or two people ship off a batch email and get things rolling on eBay's end.

Drakron · Jul 15, 2005, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Well Sony tried ... now they do it thenselves.

RMThompson · Jul 15, 2005, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by badgob

I was under the impression that if notified, eBay could shut down such blatantly illegal auctions. And if the seller open enough illegal auctions, they get shut down. I am also under the impression that an approach like this has not been attempted by any company, ArenaNet included.

The problem here is that it's not ILLEGAL it's just against the EULA of ArenaNet... And Ebay doesn't really give a DAMN about the EULA of Arenanet.

It's perfectly legal, even if it does break the rules of the game... that would be like saying farming is illegal. It aint!

Diomedes · Jul 15, 2005, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

The problem here is that it's not ILLEGAL it's just against the EULA of ArenaNet... And Ebay doesn't really give a DAMN about the EULA of Arenanet.

It's perfectly legal, even if it does break the rules of the game... that would be like saying farming is illegal. It aint!

Well, it's not just against the EULA of Areanet, it's against the license that the user agreed to as well. IANAL, but I do think it does open up the possibility of civil action against these users (and even possibly e-bay). The problem is that many of these farmers live in areas of the world where U.S. civil cases are not that enforceable. As for e-bay, the cost involved in taking action along with the hornets nest sure to be stirred up by it are probably why ANet is avoiding the issue for the moment.

-Diomedes

badgob · Jul 15, 2005, 04:36 PM // 16:36

I guess my point here is if you make it more difficult for the botters to find buyers for their items, there will be less botters. If there is nothing to deter these fiends, then they have no reason to change their behavior.

You know, this is vaguely reminiscant of "The War on Drugs" back in the 80's. Only switch drugs with "items" or "gold".

EmperorTippy · Jul 15, 2005, 04:45 PM // 16:45

It is illegal. The botters are selling something that doesn't belong to them. That 'gold' is the virtuial property of ANet and thus can't be sold legaly with out their permission. It is a kin to the botter renting a house from you and selling it to another person. We are doing the same thing with guildwars except ours is a permenent lease. What ANet needs to do is cut off the buyers. Merely start up a bunch of EBay accounts generate a bunch of gold offer it for sale and when a person comes to buy ban him. To stop from being held liably for stealing from the person add code to the items/gold that makes it dissapear in x number of miniutes (try like 5). You were sold the gold its not the sellers fault what happens to it after you take dellivery.

Algren Cole · Jul 15, 2005, 04:46 PM // 16:46

see...the problem here is that most of you think a EULA is a legally binding contract...and it's not.

noblepaladin · Jul 15, 2005, 04:47 PM // 16:47

The main problem is that A.Net will have to get people to look for such auctions, and I don't think they want to hire someone who just looks for auctions. And E-Bay would need someone who just keeps going around deleting such auctions. There is definitely no reason for E-Bay to do that, they don't care about some game. So even if we flood E-Bay with requests to delete certain auctions, E-Bay must investigate to see if the claim is true before deleting and it causes alot of hassle for people who already bid and for E-Bay customer service (although those "customers" are not complying by the EULA and they deserve to be banned, they will still complain to E-Bay that they bid on an auction and it disappeared, etc). E-Bay is not going to create trouble for themselves with no incentive to do so.

EmperorTippy · Jul 15, 2005, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

see...the problem here is that most of you think a EULA is a legally binding contract...and it's not.

The EULA isn't legaly binding BUT you don't own any 1 thing in the game. Not your character. Not your gold. Not your items. Not your account. Not a thing. You have leased it from ANet and NCSoft. They are the owners of your character. They allow you to play it but it is still their property.

Algren Cole · Jul 15, 2005, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by EmperorTippy

The EULA isn't legaly binding BUT you don't own any 1 thing in the game. Not your character. Not your gold. Not your items. Not your account. Not a thing. You have leased it from ANet and NCSoft. They are the owners of your character. They allow you to play it but it is still their property.

nobody is selling THEIR property....they are selling the time with which it took to attain that property...the property itself is entirely free.

Legally there is nothing ArenaNet can do about it...and ebay isn't going to shut down perfectly legal auctions just because they don't abide by ArenaNets EULA. ArenaNet can ban you from the game....other than that there is nothing they can do.

Tactical-Dillusions · Jul 15, 2005, 05:22 PM // 17:22

I wonder if ArenaNet will buy some of these items and catch them that way?

Seems more plausible to spend $10 on their own property in order to make examples of people rather than spend $$$$$ on nerfing and potentially damaging the entire game.

IMO

Damon Windwalker · Jul 15, 2005, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

nobody is selling THEIR property....they are selling the time with which it took to attain that property...the property itself is entirely free.

"I'm not selling illegal narcotics - I'm selling my time taken to process, package, and distribute them. the drugs themselves are completely free."

I don't think that would hold up in court....

Algren Cole · Jul 15, 2005, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damon Windwalker

"I'm not selling illegal narcotics - I'm selling my time taken to process, package, and distribute them. the drugs themselves are completely free."

I don't think that would hold up in court....

if you're in possession of drugs you are breaking the law...therefore no that wouldn't hold up in court.

There is already precedence for this kind of activity. Someone sells a Red Sox T-Shirt on the internet for $5,000....and gives two tickets to game 6 of the World Series as a gift....they aren't scalping tickets...you didn't buy a ticket....you bought a very very expensive t-shirt.

Yamat · Jul 15, 2005, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

see...the problem here is that most of you think a EULA is a legally binding contract...and it's not.

Not true. If you start disassembling code and hacking it/providing it for free to others, you can end up in court. That is why every piece of software/electronics you buy has a EULA in it...